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	<title>Comments on: Weekend Design Challenge: PvP design</title>
	<atom:link href="http://psychochild.org/?feed=rss2&#038;p=360" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360</link>
	<description>A developer&#039;s musings on game development and writing.</description>
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		<title>By: pve is the metagame</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-389837</link>
		<dc:creator>pve is the metagame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-389837</guid>
		<description>PvP only mmos never worked out and GW is no exception, PvP was always wanted by the players and in the end we had the same situation: Almost all were not pvping. Draw your own conclusion from that. PvE content keeps a game alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PvP only mmos never worked out and GW is no exception, PvP was always wanted by the players and in the end we had the same situation: Almost all were not pvping. Draw your own conclusion from that. PvE content keeps a game alive.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Doyle</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-388896</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Doyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 03:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-388896</guid>
		<description>I have a few of my own potential systems that might help (in addition to many of the good ideas above):

Give newbies some &quot;free&quot; defensive/passive skills which make them very hard to kill by other players in a PvP situation to combat ganking.  Let them choose whether or not to later &quot;trade in&quot; these skills for others they might want.  Doing so is not mandatory, but may be desirable.  Of course, doing so will &quot;open them up&quot; so to speak to PvP combat permanently once they trade them in, giving them the choice to stay PvE for their entire career or go PvP once they realize it isn&#039;t.

Provide a &quot;revenge&quot; system in which victims of griefing (high level PvPer attacking a lowbie, etc.) can get a free bounty against that player, for other players to accept for monetary gain - which is then split 50/50 between the player who kills the ganker and the low level player who was ganked.

As much as I hate to punish players - punish gankers - NPC bounties, fines, higher merchant prices, &quot;outlaw status&quot; for x hours/days in which all NPCs will attack on site, etc.  Many possiblities here 

Of course, some of the most critical points to good PvP are to have goals and objectives, not just mindless player on player killing.  Give them a good reason to engage in PvP - and make it as enticing as possible to encourage non-PvPers to give it a shot, and to also help them realize that it&#039;s not as bad as they once might have thought.  This of course means we have to design systems that ensure it is in fact not all that bad.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a few of my own potential systems that might help (in addition to many of the good ideas above):</p>
<p>Give newbies some "free" defensive/passive skills which make them very hard to kill by other players in a PvP situation to combat ganking.  Let them choose whether or not to later "trade in" these skills for others they might want.  Doing so is not mandatory, but may be desirable.  Of course, doing so will "open them up" so to speak to PvP combat permanently once they trade them in, giving them the choice to stay PvE for their entire career or go PvP once they realize it isn't.</p>
<p>Provide a "revenge" system in which victims of griefing (high level PvPer attacking a lowbie, etc.) can get a free bounty against that player, for other players to accept for monetary gain - which is then split 50/50 between the player who kills the ganker and the low level player who was ganked.</p>
<p>As much as I hate to punish players - punish gankers - NPC bounties, fines, higher merchant prices, "outlaw status" for x hours/days in which all NPCs will attack on site, etc.  Many possiblities here </p>
<p>Of course, some of the most critical points to good PvP are to have goals and objectives, not just mindless player on player killing.  Give them a good reason to engage in PvP - and make it as enticing as possible to encourage non-PvPers to give it a shot, and to also help them realize that it's not as bad as they once might have thought.  This of course means we have to design systems that ensure it is in fact not all that bad.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: Kreation&#8217;s Edge</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-386933</link>
		<dc:creator>Kreation&#8217;s Edge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-386933</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;PVP Done Right?&lt;/b&gt;

[...] Psychochild started up a nice related entry to this with some great ideas posted by the community    &#171; Variance Shadow Mapping and Light Bleeding The Bandwidth Pit &#187; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>PVP Done Right?</b></p>
<p>[...] Psychochild started up a nice related entry to this with some great ideas posted by the community    &laquo; Variance Shadow Mapping and Light Bleeding The Bandwidth Pit &raquo; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Auguste Sentinel</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-381374</link>
		<dc:creator>Auguste Sentinel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-381374</guid>
		<description>n.n said &quot;One possibility: Players don&#039;t die when their HP reaches 0. They enter a state where an opponent must use a special &quot;execution move&quot; to finish them. If they are not executed within a certain timespan (10 seconds??) then they have some kind of escape option (perhaps being able to teleport to a safe zone, or being invulnerable for a short while but unable to fight).&quot;

I&#039;ve seen something similar in a MUD, maybe Medieva?  If your HP reached 0 you&#039;d become unconcious and start losing blood.  You&#039;d only die when you got to -10 HP.  If somebody could stop the heavy bleeding you&#039;d be alright, otherwise you&#039;d bleed out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>n.n said "One possibility: Players don't die when their HP reaches 0. They enter a state where an opponent must use a special "execution move" to finish them. If they are not executed within a certain timespan (10 seconds??) then they have some kind of escape option (perhaps being able to teleport to a safe zone, or being invulnerable for a short while but unable to fight)."</p>
<p>I've seen something similar in a MUD, maybe Medieva?  If your HP reached 0 you'd become unconcious and start losing blood.  You'd only die when you got to -10 HP.  If somebody could stop the heavy bleeding you'd be alright, otherwise you'd bleed out.</p>
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		<title>By: n.n</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-381222</link>
		<dc:creator>n.n</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-381222</guid>
		<description>Idle thoughts (yeah, late to the game again):

- Have an alignment/class system like Ogre Battle (really old SNES RTS). 

  - Players can change class at any time (perhaps by spending money).
  - The advanced (hence more powerful) classes have alignment requirements: Good (e.g. pally), Neutral (e.g. druid), Evil (e.g. necro).

  - If you attack or kill a much lower-level player, your alignment goes down. Once your alignment drops below e.g. 70%, you become &quot;neutral&quot;. Once your alignment drops below 30%, you become &quot;evil&quot;. 
  - You can raise your alignment through showing mercy (refusing to kill a defeated enemy) or helping the weak (rescuing a newbie from a ganker).
  - If you can no longer fulfill your class&#039;s alignment requirements, your character reverts to a basic class with no alignment requirements.
  - One possibility: Players don&#039;t die when their HP reaches 0. They enter a state where an opponent must use a special &quot;execution move&quot; to finish them. If they are not executed within a certain timespan (10 seconds??) then they have some kind of escape option (perhaps being able to teleport to a safe zone, or being invulnerable for a short while but unable to fight).
  - Another possibility: Players might have abilities which allow them to knock a weakened opponent out, rendering him invincible (to prevent them from helping an evil player to gank him) but unable to act, and effectively ending the fight.

I&#039;m sure there are ways to game the system, but it seems to me that this would introduce an interesting dynamic if managed right. Many players like to think they&#039;re good people (see: Alliance zerg in WoW), so why not lean on them to &quot;earn&quot; their goodness? Picture the newbie dropped into a raging battlefield: within seconds, an evil necromancer swoops down on him, unleashing a bolt of dark energy. His HP drops to near-zero instantly, and he&#039;s about to collapse. The necromancer raises his bone scythe to deliver the finishing blow, but before it lands, an armored paladin steps in between them and the scythe clashes harmlessly off his tower shield... Of course, the paladin is merely farming alignment, but our newbie doesn&#039;t have to know this ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Idle thoughts (yeah, late to the game again):</p>
<p>- Have an alignment/class system like Ogre Battle (really old SNES RTS). </p>
<p>  - Players can change class at any time (perhaps by spending money).<br />
  - The advanced (hence more powerful) classes have alignment requirements: Good (e.g. pally), Neutral (e.g. druid), Evil (e.g. necro).</p>
<p>  - If you attack or kill a much lower-level player, your alignment goes down. Once your alignment drops below e.g. 70%, you become "neutral". Once your alignment drops below 30%, you become "evil".<br />
  - You can raise your alignment through showing mercy (refusing to kill a defeated enemy) or helping the weak (rescuing a newbie from a ganker).<br />
  - If you can no longer fulfill your class's alignment requirements, your character reverts to a basic class with no alignment requirements.<br />
  - One possibility: Players don't die when their HP reaches 0. They enter a state where an opponent must use a special "execution move" to finish them. If they are not executed within a certain timespan (10 seconds??) then they have some kind of escape option (perhaps being able to teleport to a safe zone, or being invulnerable for a short while but unable to fight).<br />
  - Another possibility: Players might have abilities which allow them to knock a weakened opponent out, rendering him invincible (to prevent them from helping an evil player to gank him) but unable to act, and effectively ending the fight.</p>
<p>I'm sure there are ways to game the system, but it seems to me that this would introduce an interesting dynamic if managed right. Many players like to think they're good people (see: Alliance zerg in WoW), so why not lean on them to "earn" their goodness? Picture the newbie dropped into a raging battlefield: within seconds, an evil necromancer swoops down on him, unleashing a bolt of dark energy. His HP drops to near-zero instantly, and he's about to collapse. The necromancer raises his bone scythe to deliver the finishing blow, but before it lands, an armored paladin steps in between them and the scythe clashes harmlessly off his tower shield... Of course, the paladin is merely farming alignment, but our newbie doesn't have to know this ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Auguste Sentinel</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-380714</link>
		<dc:creator>Auguste Sentinel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-380714</guid>
		<description>Wow, it seems I was right (Post 2).  The other day Auran announced Fury will become completely free to play as of December 14th, the day the Age of the Chosen expansion will be added.  Of course, subscriptions will still be available and free players will be unable to trade and earn less coins on top of the restrictions to players who bought the game but don&#039;t subscribe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, it seems I was right (Post 2).  The other day Auran announced Fury will become completely free to play as of December 14th, the day the Age of the Chosen expansion will be added.  Of course, subscriptions will still be available and free players will be unable to trade and earn less coins on top of the restrictions to players who bought the game but don't subscribe.</p>
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		<title>By: Talaen</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-380256</link>
		<dc:creator>Talaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-380256</guid>
		<description>My thoughts on this (I am primarily a PvE person but I&#039;ve enjoyed PvP somewhat).

1.  Give folks something meaningful to fight over.  Many PvPers will get into ladder scoring and such, but if you&#039;re going to set PvP in a VW, then you might as well give them some kind of additional hook - something that encourages them to keep fighting even when they&#039;re not on the winning side.  This is especially important if mass PvP is the goal - you need to have some kind of RvR-style objectives.

2.  Rock-Paper-Scissors balance.  So many games get bogged down in &quot;he said, she said&quot; between classes or skill sets, and generally all this accomplishes is that it homogenizes people&#039;s characters, or leads to flavor-of-the-month skillsets.  It&#039;s better off if you design from the beginning with a rock-paper-scissors balance - so you know up front that as designed, a rogue should be able to beat a priest, but a warrior can defeat the rogue, but a wizard can defeat the warrior, but a priest can defeat a wizard.

3. Minimize the impact of gear, and avoid large incremental increases in character power.  Sure you want to have some - everyone wants to see their characters advance - but ideally you want a system where the skillful newbie can bring down the lazy veteran in a fight.

4.  Include social hangouts.  Just because most of your gameplay is built on gladiatorial combat doesn&#039;t mean that gladiators don&#039;t have lives outside of the arena.  Give players places to meet, swap stories, and make friends, and reasons to do so (this is easy if you have a PvE game as well).

5.  Avoid complicated rulesets.  If you need to throw a bunch of artificial restrictions into your PvP system in order to insure fairness, then you need to redesign the system.  Complicated rulesets just encourage players to find loopholes and discourage players who want more &quot;free-form&quot; action.

Those are my thoughts for now..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My thoughts on this (I am primarily a PvE person but I've enjoyed PvP somewhat).</p>
<p>1.  Give folks something meaningful to fight over.  Many PvPers will get into ladder scoring and such, but if you're going to set PvP in a VW, then you might as well give them some kind of additional hook - something that encourages them to keep fighting even when they're not on the winning side.  This is especially important if mass PvP is the goal - you need to have some kind of RvR-style objectives.</p>
<p>2.  Rock-Paper-Scissors balance.  So many games get bogged down in "he said, she said" between classes or skill sets, and generally all this accomplishes is that it homogenizes people's characters, or leads to flavor-of-the-month skillsets.  It's better off if you design from the beginning with a rock-paper-scissors balance - so you know up front that as designed, a rogue should be able to beat a priest, but a warrior can defeat the rogue, but a wizard can defeat the warrior, but a priest can defeat a wizard.</p>
<p>3. Minimize the impact of gear, and avoid large incremental increases in character power.  Sure you want to have some - everyone wants to see their characters advance - but ideally you want a system where the skillful newbie can bring down the lazy veteran in a fight.</p>
<p>4.  Include social hangouts.  Just because most of your gameplay is built on gladiatorial combat doesn't mean that gladiators don't have lives outside of the arena.  Give players places to meet, swap stories, and make friends, and reasons to do so (this is easy if you have a PvE game as well).</p>
<p>5.  Avoid complicated rulesets.  If you need to throw a bunch of artificial restrictions into your PvP system in order to insure fairness, then you need to redesign the system.  Complicated rulesets just encourage players to find loopholes and discourage players who want more "free-form" action.</p>
<p>Those are my thoughts for now..</p>
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		<title>By: Grimwell</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-379165</link>
		<dc:creator>Grimwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-379165</guid>
		<description>To be succinct: Move progression off the character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be succinct: Move progression off the character.</p>
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		<title>By: Psychochild</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-378918</link>
		<dc:creator>Psychochild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-378918</guid>
		<description>Scott Jennings wrote (and then edited) a post that might be of interest to people discussing this issue:

http://brokentoys.org/2007/12/10/how-to-make-a-game-with-pvp-done-right/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott Jennings wrote (and then edited) a post that might be of interest to people discussing this issue:</p>
<p><a href='http://brokentoys.org/2007/12/10/how-to-make-a-game-with-pvp-done-right/'>http://brokentoys.org/2007/12/10/how-to-make-a-game-with-pvp-done-right/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Idlethought</title>
		<link>http://psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-377771</link>
		<dc:creator>Idlethought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.psychochild.org/?p=360#comment-377771</guid>
		<description>Variant on suggestion by mcj:

If attack first and kill a player with a lower level, you lose all abilities and stats above that level for 24 hours.  If you kill a player with a higher level you gain those abilities for 24 hours.  Losing doesn&#039;t affect your status.  Of course we&#039;re now into the territory where it&#039;s worth a low-level character provoking a high level character into attacking them just to grief them, but that hopefully would relatively rare and could be handled by normal abuse channels.

Assuming there is some other reason for taking the combat risk - factional points, gold, kudos, ranking.. there should still be enough incentive for combat, with a real (but only short-term) risk.

A skilled player could bring in a Level 1 char and be running at Level 80 pretty quickly - if they have the skill, but they have to keep killing (Players of a comparable level).  Could be a interesting (or insane) mechanic in a vampiric setting.  Not a great way of reducing obsessive play however.  (Perhaps it should be 8 hours of &#039;online&#039; time)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Variant on suggestion by mcj:</p>
<p>If attack first and kill a player with a lower level, you lose all abilities and stats above that level for 24 hours.  If you kill a player with a higher level you gain those abilities for 24 hours.  Losing doesn't affect your status.  Of course we're now into the territory where it's worth a low-level character provoking a high level character into attacking them just to grief them, but that hopefully would relatively rare and could be handled by normal abuse channels.</p>
<p>Assuming there is some other reason for taking the combat risk - factional points, gold, kudos, ranking.. there should still be enough incentive for combat, with a real (but only short-term) risk.</p>
<p>A skilled player could bring in a Level 1 char and be running at Level 80 pretty quickly - if they have the skill, but they have to keep killing (Players of a comparable level).  Could be a interesting (or insane) mechanic in a vampiric setting.  Not a great way of reducing obsessive play however.  (Perhaps it should be 8 hours of 'online' time)</p>
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