In addition, many people seem to either find Satisfaction over-rated, or don't find Satisfaction a good enough reason to deal with the "grind" of reaching a goal. Otherwise why are there so many people in the world with no perceivable goals? There are people who never reach a goal in their lives: never graduate highschool, never go to college, get married, have children, create anything, etc. People who do nothing but go to work and come home and watch TV or maybe go to a movie.

What it comes down to is that I agree with Azuriel that both short-term and long-term fun should be fun all the time. I don't find incredibly difficult or boring things to ultimately be satisfying if they get me to some goal. In fact if something is incredibly difficult or boring I generally will simply avoid doing it at all no matter the goal. I don't understand people who claim to like grinding. I wonder if they have some tiny "martyr" thing going on where they get satisfaction from "suffering" for their game :) I detest grinding so much that I will usually go out of my way NOT to kill things unless they are necessary to kill for a quest or in order to be able to complete a quest.

On a side note I really wish that MMOs had not decided upon killing mobs as the base measure of progress in the game. Even though MMOs would simply have a different base measure that for some reason they would make into a grind, I am always disappointed when a new MMO comes out with the same devaluation of killing things.

Fun without satisfaction is fleeting if enjoyable. Satisfaction without immediate fun slides very quickly into "I'm being forced to grind" territory.

Gotta have both.

And for the record, I'm one of those weirdoes who enjoy repetitive farming for an hour or two. IF the moment-to-moment combat action is fun (ie. responsive, immediate, either somewhat challenging or somewhat meditative.) Prefer being solo though, other people interrupt my rhythm and sense of control/satisfaction in taking down mobs. And that leads into eventual satisfaction as I collect the loot that is ALL MINE, and either make use of it or sell it for money to enable other goals in-game.

First, people who grew up in the early years of MMO's, with more time investment and (hopefully) greater satisfaction now have jobs and families. There is no game design you can posit that will "fix" this "problem". The theoretical level of satisfaction that I could get from success in a game with hour-long boat times is irrelevant because I can no longer succeed in such a game. Come back in 30+ years when I'm retired and my kid(s) are (dear gods I hope) out of the house - use big fonts on the UI for your MMO Virtual Retirement Community - and we'll talk.

As to the view that the consumers of online products collectively don't know what's good for ourselves - you may be correct, but I'm not convinced this is a solvable problem either. Ten years ago, switching MMO's (assuming you found a replacement that supported your preferred playstyle) was going to cost you a trip to a store, $50 for a new game, hours patching and weeks leveling in the new game. Today, during the hour that I'm hypothetically willing to spend waiting for your old school boat ride, I could download and install any number of originally multi-million-dollar products that are now free to play. Or, I could download an even greater number of free "casual" games to the ever increasing number of tablets in my home, some of them literally next to my computer keyboard. Telling your customers that they should tolerate something that they know is not fun now in exchange for something that you claim will be more satisfying later is a tough sell in an environment where they can so easily go do something else that's fun now instead.

No, not really. The main reason the boat worked for more people was that it traveled through a zone to get to the other side, and that zone had stuff in it of interest. Well, one of them did. People hated it mostly because it was something which ate up time they could have used buying a teleport instead . . . unless, like me, they hunted a lot in Ocean of Tears :) (Seafuries were very lucrative.)

To compare, in my words, it's like this. The irritation of grinding is alleviated in part by what you get at the end. Going back to roots, grinding experience in old RPGs had its annoyances but they went away when you didn't have to struggle with things afterwards and could just push through. If what you get from the end is nothing you want, why suffer?

I said, "Well, yeah, but doesn't the irritation of the boat make it all that much better when you get to port?"

They both looked down, stroked their chins, and went, "Hmmm."

I decided not to work for them, although that wasn't the only reason.

I think you're on to something with short-term versus long-term, and it doesn't matter much what you call it. I think though, that you're somewhat confounding it with issues of intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation.

I found Monster Hunter scratched that itch for a while, getting two of my friends together and pitting our rhythm and method together against something.

It's fun because I get to play on a competitive level, but less fun because sometimes I can chase an idea and it winds up going sour fast leading to a 0-5 night. Those are not fun, except maybe the last two where you don't have to TRY to win because it won't mean anything. So you can fool around. Maybe not fun for an opponent trying to stay in the prize brackets . . .

Anyway, on the topic of "fun" versus "Satisfaction" from MMOs. I have a lot of fun with Guild Wars 2 and feel satisfied more often than not. Sure, I don't "achieve" all that much. But I rarely feel my time is wasted . . . mostly because I just do what I want. No pressure to go chasing specific awesome gear, or anything. It's something in common with M59 actually - I didn't have to really chase gear in THAT game either! Mostly because it was so very . . . transient? Eh, possibly a different word there. But in M59 my gear was not as important as my skill and build. (Not, mind you, skills. Skill.)

But on the other hand, I was much less satisfied with M59 overall. The prospect of having any fun cut short by a suitably persistent adversary (read: PKer) due to my overwhelmingly BAD ability to fight? Yes, that tainted any fun I was having with having to always be ready to do the Alt-F4 salute.

Ultima Online, HONESTLY was the most satisfying game of MMOs I played. Why? I never really got powerful in that, I never owned awesome and unique stuff . . . no but I did own a house with patio and worked my rear off to get my craft skills enough to furnish it all on my own. I hunted down a few particular decorations via shipwreck fishing and had friends watch my back sometimes when I went out mining for rarer ores. I felt accomplished and satisfied with what I built back then, and the only games which come close to that is Minecraft or Gnomoria recently. And where one can allow me more interesting expressions, it's single-player only while the multi-player one runs the risk of some idiot messing with your stuff.

Rambled quite a bit, but still wanted to leave something here for thought. When I have fun, I generally have games which wind up going to the shelf only to come out rarely . . . when I have satisfaction I rarely put the games too far from the computer or my reach.

(For the record, though, I don't think Settlers of Catan is going too far into my closet. It's way TOO much fun . . .)

My favorite games will always be the ones where the controls are airtight.
It's probably why I enjoy the street fighter series so much, and games like Castlevania:SotN.
You felt every move was YOUR doing. You were in complete control of your characters actions.
I always felt the EQ2 combat system was like this, but they ruined it by making raids into omgpayattentiontoyourdotswindoworweallwipe!!!!!!

I'm still searching for something that's even close to as satisfying as watching your friend fall for your fake fireball and jump right into a shin-shoryuken.
I fear those days are long gone though.

I read a fantastic post this evening. Prinnie excels at expressing the physicality of playing MMOs but here she outdoes herself http://mechalis.wordpress.com/2013/05/20/gimme-a-super-soaker-and-ill-heal-you/ It's that ineffable moment-in-the-moment when you hit the keys harder so you heal better; when you turn hard to the right in your swivel-chair so your character can teeter on the edge and not fall; when your sheer willpower and ability to really swear is what's holding the Boss tight against your tower shield.

That's the intensity of full-on combat but the physical operates in all spheres. Try designing, constructing and decorating a breakout house in EQ2. The seemingly endless sequence of placements, the intricate finger movements, the concentration, the muscle-lock. Try pulling and breaking a camp in EQ; the feints, the rhythm, the timing. Go farm crafting mats and sense the hoppers fill accordant to your patient dedication.

It's like music. When you play your character well it's like playing an instrument. It's beauty, harmony, skill, beyond either fun or achievement; those terms belittle what it can be, what it is. It is of itself and sufficient thereby.